How to improve fine detail print quality of the m2?

[swbluto]

My M2 works fine, everything seems to be bolted tight and loctite is in all the right places. And, just about everything prints out fine. But, I've noticed, that it doesn't really print out fine details that well, like a tiny letter extruded upwards or some other tiny detail extruded upwards. The letters are no longer letters, but some slightly erratic column of amorphous spaghetti.

Now, you might object I'm expecting too much of my machine, and you might be right. But, my makerbot replicator 2x prints out these details just fine and I'm finding myself reliant on those machines for this level of detail (And, they're not as easy to control manually since they're standalone.)

It kind of looks like it might be a design weakness. The plastic extruder motor harness seems to have some amount of flexibility which throws off highly detailed extrusions (Like tiny columns of text), whereas the replicator 2x I have seems to be entirely metal and very little room for 'play'. It also has a plastic motor carriage, but it doesn't seem to cause the extruder motor to sway like it does with the extruder motor ontop of the carriage with the m2 (There's no room for play with the replicator's plastic harness design as the motor is sandwiched on both sides AND bolted underneath, whereas the m2 seems to have a sort of pendulum effect since the carriage is only bolted underneath (The motor itself is not bolted, like it is with the replicator) and the motor itself is not sandwiched and stabilized, allowing tiny perturbations to throw off extruded columns of text and other fine details). Is there a way to stiffen this up to improve fine detail accuracy? It'd be nice if my makergear M2 could do everything S3D thinks it can do.

[Bratag]

My M2 works fine, everything seems to be bolted tight and loctite is in all the right places. And, just about everything prints out fine. But, I've noticed, that it doesn't really print out fine details that well, like a tiny letter extruded upwards or some other tiny detail extruded upwards. The letters are no longer letters, but some slightly erratic column of amorphous spaghetti.

Now, you might object I'm expecting too much of my machine, and you might be right. But, my makerbot replicator 2x prints out these details just fine and I'm finding myself reliant on those machines for this level of detail (And, they're not as easy to control manually since they're standalone.)

It kind of looks like it might be a design weakness. The plastic extruder motor harness seems to have some amount of flexibility which throws off highly detailed extrusions (Like tiny columns of text), whereas the replicator 2x I have seems to be entirely metal and very little room for 'play'. It also has a plastic motor carriage, but it doesn't seem to cause the extruder motor to sway like it does with the extruder motor ontop of the carriage with the m2 (There's no room for play with the replicator's plastic harness design as the motor is sandwiched on both sides AND bolted underneath, whereas the m2 seems to have a sort of pendulum effect since the carriage is only bolted underneath (The motor itself is not bolted, like it is with the replicator) and the motor itself is not sandwiched and stabilized, allowing tiny perturbations to throw off extruded columns of text and other fine details). Is there a way to stiffen this up to improve fine detail accuracy? It'd be nice if my makergear M2 could do everything S3D thinks it can do.

Dont seem to have any problems with detail on my end

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2172

[swbluto]

I don't seem to have a problem with 'detail', it's more like tiny columns of extruded text or tiny eyes extending 9mm upwards don't remain completely solid, and gets jumbled up (More or less, essentially, very thin/small tall columns don't print out fine). Then again, I could always check all my screws once more... lol.

Btw, Impressive.

[Bratag]

I don't seem to have a problem with 'detail', it's more like tiny columns of extruded text or tiny eyes extending 9mm upwards don't remain completely solid, and gets jumbled up. Then again, I could always check all my screws once more... lol.

Not sure what you mean. Could you provide a picture of what S3D thinks it should look like and what it actually looks like. If you need detail then you have to slow your print speed and acceleration way down.

One of the things I am loving about the M2 is its ability to create parts. I just printed 69 parts for a walking AT-AT including dozens of gears and every single part fit with no or very light sanding. Other printers I have had were incapable of sets of items with the same tolerances twice in a row, it meant I spent a lot more time sanding and cursing.
If the M2 had all this flex etc you are talking about that would simply not be the case, each part would conform to whatever flex etc was present at the time of print.

If you search the forums you will find a number of micro printed objects that retain detail just fine. I suspect the issue here is between slicers.

[swbluto]

I'm not suggesting that the M2 is incapable. It can print out 95% of everything I need, but I'm dealing with tall/very thin extrusions/columns which seems to be a weakness of this machine. Those kind of details are not present on your typical gear or part for that matter. It's not the 'level of detail', per se, it's this particular kind of detail: Tall/very thin columns, not walls, not something that's .7mm wide and 3 mm long, but a column that's .7mm diameter and 9mm tall.

If you can print out .7mm diameter 9mm tall cylinders on your machine perfectly, then I would certainly give my machine a closer look.

Also, it's not the slicer - I'm using the same slicer (S3D) for my replicator and the M2. Replicator replicates the tiny diameter tall columns fine, M2 does not nearly as well.

[Bratag]

I'm not suggesting that the M2 is incapable. It can print out 95% of everything I need, but I'm dealing with tall/very thin extrusions/columns which seems to be a weakness of this machine. Those kind of details are not present on your typical gear or part for that matter. It's not the 'level of detail', per se, it's this particular kind of detail: Tall/very thin columns, not walls, not something that's .7mm wide and 3 mm long, but a column that's .7mm diameter and 9mm tall.

If you can print out .7mm diameter 9mm tall cylinders on your machine perfectly, then I would certainly give my machine a closer look.

Also, it's not the slicer - I'm using the same slicer (S3D) for my replicator and the M2. Replicator replicates the tiny diameter tall columns fine, M2 does not nearly as well.

I will try something like that tonight. What size nozzle are you using? What extrusion width? What speed are you printing at?

Do the columns break off? are they lopsided? do they have holes? Could you be a little more specific with the exact issue.

[ednisley]

.7mm diameter 9mm tall cylinders

This isn't quite "perfect", but it seems reasonably good after maybe 15 minutes of tinkering:

Tiny cylinder - 0.9x9.0 mm - PETG

That's actually 0.9 mm diameter, because a 0.4 mm thread width from the 0.35 nozzle on my M2 doesn't fit neatly into a 0.7 mm diameter circle. If you have a 0.25 mm nozzle, then 0.7 mm would be feasible. It measures 1.1 mm diameter over the small defects, so a little fine-tuning may be in order; I'd want to tweak the Extrusion Multiplier more carefully if I were doing something like that.

Sliced with Slic3r for PETG at 1 mm/s, with fans in full effect. It sits inside a 5 mm brim and a skirt that uses 15 mm of filament.

The OpenSCAD model consists of one line:
cylinder(d=0.9,h=9,$fn=8);

When you say "it's not the slicer", have you verified all the essential settings between the two machine profiles? Differences in the minimum speed, thread width, or any of the automagic settings will definitely skew the results; my default settings for rationally sized models didn't work at all.

On the other paw, after a bit of fiddling, all I had to do was force the print speed to 1 mm/s and leave everything else alone.

It kind of looks like it might be a design weakness.

I don't think so...

[swbluto]

On the other paw, after a bit of fiddling, all I had to do was force the print speed to 1 mm/s and leave everything else alone.

It kind of looks like it might be a design weakness.

I don't think so...

Thanks, yep, exactly what I suspected. The momentum of the motor during higher speed maneuvers causes tiny pertubations in its x-position that render tiny columns like this a bit imperfect, and that's largely because the motor's weight/position is not sufficiently secured. I'm not going to slow down my entire print to 1mm/s to compensate for this. My prints already take 2-3 hours at 20mm/s, lol. (The travel movements themselves are 50mm/s)

Now if I could modify the design of the carriage to stiffen the motor up and secure its heft a bit better, I'd certainly entertain it. And, that seems possible, just that I don't how I'd do it yet.

As to the slicer; same slicer s3d. As to the print settings; exact same settings. 20mm/s outline/solid infill, 7mm/s bottom layer, 50mm/s travel, 50mm/s normal. Nice and slow, usually results in perfect prints for 95% of what I do. I've been using these machines successfully for a while, so I know my printer settings are just fine.

Makergear defaults: .35mm nozzle, .35ext. width.

[ednisley]

momentum of the motor during higher speed maneuvers

You're (trying to) print something two threads wide at 50 mm/s and you wonder why the nozzle pulls a high-aspect-ratio pile of viscous goo off vertical? There's no possible mechanical slop affecting that problem that wouldn't show up elsewhere; it's all in your slicer settings.

To wit, using your current settings, can your Rep 2 print a single 0.7x9.0 mm cylinder to your specs? At 50 mm/s, the entire cylinder should print in a few seconds and I find that hard to believe.

Comparative pictures of the same models on the two printers would be enlightening; I'd like to see them!

I'm not going to slow down my entire print to 1mm/s to compensate for this

You could put a modifier mesh around each cylinder and print them with appropriate settings, without affecting the rest of your model. Oh, wait, that's a Slic3r feature.

I've been using these machines successfully for a while, so I know my printer settings are just fine.

Sorta like switching from PLA to PETG and expecting it to print perfectly, without changing any settings at all, because the printer & slicer settings have always worked before. Might happen, but ... different materials, different models, different machines all require different settings. Nothing surprising about that, methinks.

[Bratag]

You could put a modifier mesh around each cylinder and print them with appropriate settings, without affecting the rest of your model. Oh, wait, that's a Slic3r feature.

Might be a time where S3D separate mesh elements could come in handy. Pull the thin columns out as their own mesh and you can put any profile on them you want.